LongDistnanceConversations
Okay, you should all have been properly invited now. If I've sent you an e-mail but somehow neglected to invite you through blogger let me know. I'll figure this junk out sooner or later. And let me know if there's anyone you think should be on this, send me their e-mail address and I'll invite them, no questions asked.
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7 comments:
Hmmm... interest seems to be petering out... hope you can sustain it. Never easy...
Incidentally, I read your post on the other blog re the Romans and I can't say I entirely agree - didn't Jesus say "give unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's...?" Wasn't his point spiritual rather than physical liberation?
Also, as Empires go, the Roman was relatively enlightened for its time...
It's jsut gotten started. So I'm not worried about interest petering out yet.
There was not dichotomy between physical and spiritual liberaion in first century Palestinian Judaism.
Enlightened? In what way? They were just as manipulative, violent and power hunger as any other empire that's ever existed. The only difference was that they were very methodical about it.
"There was not dichotomy between physical and spiritual liberaion in first century Palestinian Judaism."
So - account for the "give unto" then... I do understand the concept of Messiah in the Judaic society of that time BTW.
"Enlightened? In what way? They were just as manipulative, violent and power hunger as any other empire that's ever existed. The only difference was that they were very methodical about it."
My point was - you said they were the worst yet. Actually, the Romans were content for other cultures to continue practicing their own faiths and forms of governance, albeit as long as they gave "unto cesaer", so I would have said they were reasonably "progressive" as empires went.
I'm interested in your perspective. For example, would you regard US involvement in Iraq as empire-building or a form of liberation? I'm not trolling BTW, just interested.
Well they really didn't respect the existing cultures where they were, they would usually turn them into commodities with which they could strengthen their patron-client system of socio-economic control over the people whom they'd conquered.
"give unto Caesar..." was a way of saying that Caesar was not a true Lord or God. That YHWH deserved the devotion of all creation. Jesus was putting the people who'd asked that question in an awkward position. He was basically pointing out that they were complicit with a foreign, pegan ruler. It was anyhting but the compliance with the way things are that so many people have made it out to be.
I would say that the war in Iraq is representative of the current empire. But that empire spreads in a much more covert way throughout our lives. The abusive and dehumanizing tactics that modern and postmodern capitalism use to suck people into their control, is one example. The use of nationalism to relegate certain people to poverty because their nations didn't "try hard enough." I know that these are really broad references, but the most powerful empires rarely use force as the only tool to keep people under control. For example, the Romans used to place more and more statues farther away from Rome to remind people of who their lord and savior was. This was religious and political language, similar to much of the language used by leaders in the post-September 11th US policy debates and speeches. The fact is that the only reason it's hard see empire these days is the false distinctions established by the Enlightenment with regard to life (e.g. fith and knowledge.)
Thanks. Interesting perspective. I'm not convinced with regard to Jesus, but I would be interested to see where you are coming from in this regard.
Re 9/11, Iraq etc, ditto. I agree that it is simply a different kind of empire and with respect to wealth and trade etc an inequitable one.
I am not convinced however by your inference that 9/11 was born out of poverty or inequality. I think your reference to the Enlightenment may have had somewhat more to do with it...
Well, the fact that corporations in the United States and the west at large have been taking resources that they want and need to continue their economc dominance of the world; resulting in an understandably high amount of anger, speaks to a reaction of a brash and shocking act of violence. The fact is that we haven't seen that kind of thing before because no other area in the world that the west has treated with contempt has the potential resources to orchestrate anything on that scale.
Now, don't mistake my explanation of what they did as an excuse of it. The attacks of Sept. 11 were murderous and wicked acts. But, they were not without provocation. I would say the same of first and second century jewish Palestinian rebelion.
The best place to see what I'm saying about Jesus, though much better, is N. T. Wright's Jesus and the Victory of God. In the Stated it's published by Fortress but in the UK it's published by a company called SPCK.
And as far as the enlightenment goes, in the words of a man named Kemper Crabb, "...Those were dark days, man."
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